1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

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1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby mybeach » April 7th, 2016, 9:04 am

Hi Folks,
I've been inactive for a while. I have a 1964 Beach Mk5 Vintage FV.

We are in the process of an engine rebuild, my old 1200 case was destroyed by a rod release....
I was told that FV now allows 1600 cases, with 1200 pistons and barrels. If so, That is hopefully what we will use,

For vintage,, is the 1600 oil cooler and doghouse type shroud allowed ??
I've been told that there is a fit problem trying to use the 1200 oil cooler and shroud on a 1600 case...

The newer stuff is a lot easier to come by these days. Thanks for your input,
Tom
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby Dietmar » April 7th, 2016, 12:15 pm

Tom:

Welcome back. Always nice to see people come back to FV.

Yes, the universal case is allowed and available. That is where the good news ends. The case ( alu-mag) is expensive. My selling price is 850 and I have 2 available right now. You will also need "o" rings or spacers to use the 1200 p/c sets unless you opt for the newer AA sets that have a wider shoulder on the cylinder.
The cooler, as you mentioned is the problem. The stock replacement coolers come with 6mm studs and for some reason, these studs are shorter than the original 6mm studs. My suppliers only have these in stock. You might be OK with a rebuilt cooler, but you will have to decide if the risk is worth it. In addition, the "ears" on the universal case are thicker than the original 1200 cases. Makes for double the problem. You could have the ears machined thinner or come up with some 8mm od x 6mm id studs to fit the cooler. The top stud on the case is also 8mm but is easily adapted to the cooler- either remove and install a stepped 8 x 6 mm stud or enlarge the hole in the cooler base flange.
This is a problem that all organizations that follow monoposto rules ( no remote coolers) will have to address in the near future. The coolers that DO fit the universal case are the doghouse style requiring an adaptor and a cooler without studs at the base. This causes an offset and requires a different shroud .
The alternative of course is to find a useable 12-1500 case with the smaller "ears"
Wish I had better news for you. Maybe someone has some other ideas on how to adapt the coolers to the universal cases.
Hope this helps.
Dietmar
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby mybeach » April 7th, 2016, 2:56 pm

Thanks Dietmar.
So,
if we use a 1600 case,, with 1200 cylinders and spacers. I could legally use a 1600 oil cooler ?
That would makes things a lot simpler.

I already have a "SCAT", {I think},, aftermarket shroud we used to put a 1600 engine in the car a few years ago for solo work..
The full sized 1600 shroud wouldn't fit between the frame rails on my car.
The aftermarket shroud had a dogbox for the 1600 oil cooler.. worked fine.

If I can legally use the 1600 oil cooler with that shroud,,, Great,,,
it would surely make things easier...
Thanks again,
Tom
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby Dietmar » April 7th, 2016, 3:15 pm

Tom:

I can not speak for your organization- you would have to contact them to see what rules apply. MOST organizations that run monoposto DO NOT allow the dog house cooler arrangement nor do they allow a remote cooler.

The 1600 shroud will fit with some help from a hammer, but once again, you have to check the rules to see if the dog house is allowed.

VARA allows remote coolers but does not allow the dog house. Each organization is different.

Sorry for any confusion.

Dietmar
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby mybeach » April 7th, 2016, 5:47 pm

Hi Dietmar,,
We will try to use the old 1200 cooler on the 1600 case...
If we can't make it work ,,
I will check with the folks in VRG,,
The group that I will probably be racing with the most,
To see if they will allow us to use the NON-REMOTE.
1600 cooler on the 1600 case, with the 1600 type {SCAT} shroud..

It appears that modern FV has it figured out that the old 1200 stuff
is just not available,,,
Vintage [Monoposto] needs to catch up...
NONE of these 1600 updates are performance updates...
Maybe reliability ??
Sooo,

I recently priced a new 1200 oil cooler at $190..
I found a used one for 1/2 that price,, BUT is it OK ??
How do you check them

I filled it with water and pressurized it with an air hose,,
It didn't leak ,,, Hopefully it is OK,,
Again thanks for your help..
Tom
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby Dietmar » April 7th, 2016, 6:07 pm

Tom:

If you "lunched" an engine, it is quite possible that you had metal in the oil before the rod ( and /or bearing) let go. IF this is the case, then running the old cooler will /might be a problem or lead to another problem.
Not sure where you sourced your 1200 cooler for 190 dollars- I sell them for 89.95 ( but they will fit only the 1200 cases without modifications. ) I do have both the type 1 and type 4 coolers in stock plus the adaptors that go with them for the newer case.
Using a "used" cooler is a crap shoot- putting water in it will not tell you if a bearing let go and/or the cooler is filled with debris, metal or otherwise. I usually tell my customers if they insist on a "used" cooler to fill it with either acetone or lacquer thinner, let it sit a few hours or even days, then pour the contents into a funnel lined with a coffee filter ( or a paper towel) and see if anything comes out.
Hope this helps.

Dietmar
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby mybeach » April 7th, 2016, 6:45 pm

Hi Dietmar,
The reason the Brand New 1200 engine died, was a Cotter clip came off the end of rocker shaft....
I was Not using the Bolt together Rocker shaft assys'

a Clip,, lost an engine for me..
A supposedly GOOD engine,,..
It Didn't make it out of practice...
Oh well
Maybe this year,,
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby Dietmar » April 7th, 2016, 7:06 pm

Tom:

If you are running a sump extension OR even the stock sump plate, a screen over the pick up might have helped.
Something to think about on the new one.

Dietmar
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby jphoenix » April 8th, 2016, 1:42 pm

I think I have a spare 1200 case that I got with a car I just bought, I know it's single relief, but not sure how to tell if it's a 1600 or a 1200. Dietmar, what's the differences that would determine 1200 vs. 1600?

If it's a 1200 and someone needs it, I'd be willing to sell cheap, especially not knowing the condition of the main bearing bores, they look fine, but haven't measured them. I also have a couple of lightened flywheels and a complete flywheel/disc/pressure plate balanced.

Jim
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2016 Red Mercury FV 44
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby Dietmar » April 8th, 2016, 10:39 pm

Jim:

There were two versions of the 1200- with and without cam bearings( one year) . If the generator stand is removed, there should be a "D" shaped hole in the top of the case. If it has a round hole, it is a 1200, but MIGHT have had cam bearings cut into the case. Both are single pressure relief valve cases.
Having said that, the 1300 and the 1500 also had a single relief valve with cam bearings ( "D" hole) but the spigot for the cylinder in the 1500 was increased in size to 90mm, just like the universal case and the 1600 case.
The 12-1500 cases used 6mm studs for the oil pump.

The 1600 has 8mm studs for the heads, the 1200 has 10mm studs for the heads, but so do some cases in between the 12 and 1600.

There are several other cases that made the scene over the years. Your best bet is to insert the barrel in the spigot- if it rattles around, it is 1500 or 1600 or universal. If it is tight it COULD be a 1200 ( look for cam bearings) but there were some cases in between that had a smaller hole for the cylinders but with 10mm studs.

VW did many strange things in their transition years between 12 and 1600. You could also look under the generator stand area for a letter followed by a number.

Hope this helps ( somewhat)

Dietmar
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Re: 1600 case , Oil cooler, shroud ?/

Postby jphoenix » April 9th, 2016, 11:04 pm

Thanks Dietmar, that helps.
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
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