history lesson

history lesson

Postby 72jeff » April 28th, 2008, 10:20 pm

Does anyone know exactly what car was the first to show up with zero-roll? And, leading arms?
Just curious.....................I'm looking for the actual car(s)
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Re: history lesson

Postby FV80 » April 29th, 2008, 7:53 am

The very first zero roll FV was (and still is) the Shadowfax - designed and built in 1969 (I think) by the late Harvey Templeton. The car is now owned by Mike Jackson and it was at the 45th party at Roebling. He regularly kicks 'a' in the Monoposto vintage races as his is the ONLY car with zero roll suspension that is allowed to compete.
You can see both of Harvey's cars at http://www.FormulaVee.us/gallery45/fv45gallery.htm of the FormulaVee.us website.
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Re: history lesson

Postby butchdeer » April 29th, 2008, 12:51 pm

The lynx/caracal c with zero roll may have been the first leading arm car. FRED clark may know more history. Those cars and kits also were put on earlier Lynx B's as zero roll conversions fro z bar cars.
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Re: history lesson

Postby Rickydel » April 29th, 2008, 2:10 pm

Don't mean to step on your toes Steve, :lol: but...

The very first FV with a Zero Roll Resistance rear suspension, was Harvey's Ringwraith. He couldn't get it to work like he wanted, so Harvey then built the Shadowfax.
Jeff Carlin got the Ringwraith to work quite well. For many years, he and Harvey would finish 1-2 in many National races.
While the Shadowfax is the only car with a written exemption in the Monoposto rules, the Ringwraith, since it preceded the Shadowfax, must be included.

2008 is the first season in many, many years the Ringwraith has seen action. The owner of the Shadowfax, Mike Jackson, owns both and did a commendable job of bringing the Ringwraith back to life.
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Re: history lesson

Postby Mark_Silverberg » April 29th, 2008, 6:22 pm

While the Ringwraith was designed as a zero rear roll resistance car, Jeff Carlin added a second set of dampers in the rear to control some oscillations in the rear suspension - as I was told by Mike Jackson. The Ringwraith used a pivoting beam over the transaxle for attachment of the rear springs and dampers. In theory the beam would pivot in roll. The problem was that the beam lacked sufficient stiffness (in my opinion) and became a second un-damped spring in series with the coil over unit. Undamped springs (even of the structural kind) can cause oscillations in a suspension - imagine that the upper shock mount on a rear suspension was moving and how that could influence the wheel position.

Jeff added a second set of dampers attached at one end to the frame and the second end to the pivoting beam. Consequently some roll damping is added in the system. While this may seem a subtle distinction, forces from the dampers in suspension can easily at times exceed the spring forces (or more correctly increases in spring force with change in position).

The Shawdowfax has push rods and rockers in the rear suspension which is a much better structural solution and resulted it to be the first successful zero roll suspension.

A well set up z-bar will have zero roll resistance through a portion of roll travel. The issue is that as the roll amount increases the "spring rate" of a z-bar decreases. If the front sway bar limits roll travel to less than that amount then the dynamics of the z-bar vs zero roll will be quite similar.
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Re: history lesson

Postby 72jeff » April 29th, 2008, 8:13 pm

thanx guys..that was exactly what I was after.


anything else?
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Re: history lesson

Postby billinstuart » April 29th, 2008, 8:56 pm

Had a friend in Savannah in the '70's who had a pivoting beam rear suspension. Conventional coil-overs bolted to a beam that pivoted on a bigass bolt. Seemed to work ok for him, on a regional level.
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Re: history lesson

Postby Mark_Silverberg » April 29th, 2008, 9:04 pm

Depends on how big the beam is and the vertical stiffness. If it is a tall section which would be more resistant to bending then the spring rate would be sufficiently high in comparison to suspension spring rate.

Same arguement applied to the late 70's / early 80's rocker arm suspension on F1 down to FF. if the rockers were sufficiently stiff they worked OK - but if they fliexed a lot (especially as spring rates went up) then it was a big problem! Push rods were a far better solution for structural efficiency.
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Re: history lesson

Postby Lynn » April 29th, 2008, 9:46 pm

Was there a second Shadowfax? Bob Lazier raced one in the mid to late 70's. It was one of the ugliest cars I have ever seen. It had a different engine cover than in the pics of Harvey's car and was painted in the most hideous shade of gray. It looked like an escapee from a body shop. It wasn't primer, because primer would have been an improvement.
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Re: history lesson

Postby Grandwazoo » May 6th, 2008, 3:33 pm

Harvey Templeton built one and only car he named Shadowfax. It went thru a few hands before it landed with me. But, I've never seen a photo of it looking either gray or with significantly different bodywork than it has today. Certainly anyone else could have built a car and used the same name since Harvey was merely using the name of a character in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy.

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Re: history lesson

Postby butchdeer » May 6th, 2008, 4:48 pm

Arnie Carvel was a one tome owner of the shadowfax. Arnie was a long time FV guy from Colorado and had an association with Bob Lazier. It is posible he drove thew car while Arnie owned it. Peoble who needed FV stuff in those days were likely to find it in Arnie's barn. This was a precurser to the Race Barn a Colorado FV prep shop.
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Re: history lesson

Postby vintage40 » May 7th, 2008, 3:14 am

Ringwraith

After reading the historical account of the Ringwraith I called to question Jeff Carlin about some of the facts as I remembered them.

The car was offered for tech on the first time at the Thompson National 6/10/1972

The car was the first design by Harvey Templeton of a zero roll. The Beam called a Yoke by Harvey and Jeff was tested on public roads. The car would alternately hop the left or right front wheels. Harvey added the second set of Koni shocks on the rear not to increase roll stiffness but to correct the front wheel hop. These shocks on the lowest setting made the car drivable.

Jeff bought the car in the Spring of 1973 and raced it with success and finished seventh at the runoffs in 1974 but could never draft or pass the newest offering by Harvey the Shadowfax.

Contact me for Jeffs Number to those interested in more detail.
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Re: history lesson

Postby vintage40 » May 7th, 2008, 9:04 am

The car was sold to Mike Loken (SP) in Colorado who was friends with Bob Lazier. Arnie Carvel was the mechanic who may have made some changes to the cars suspension.
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Re: history lesson

Postby Rickydel » May 7th, 2008, 12:22 pm

Surely you are not saying the Ringwraith first raced in 1972.

Here is a result sheet from 1969: http://www.virhistory.com/vir/69-apr/69-apr-res.html
It may have been presented to tech with a log book for the first time in 1972.

The current owner of the Shadowfax and Ringwraith, did a tremendous amount of research, speaking with both Harvey and Jeff Carlin.
He has a pretty good grasp of a lot of the history of both cars. Knowing him, he will always be happy to listen to information he's not heard before, if it's accurate.
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Re: history lesson

Postby butchdeer » May 8th, 2008, 11:22 am

SCCA came out wuth log books in 1972 so no one had one before this. They were optional for 1 year and required thereafter.
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Re: history lesson

Postby vintage40 » May 10th, 2008, 1:12 am

The information I have posted for JJ who does not do the web is for the historical record as is the results of VIR and other tracks. The total record of the history should be extracted from all of this information.

Jeff Carlin offers this personal note: [quote Mike Jackson should be granted the highest achevement possible in vintage formula vee for bringing all of Master Inovator Harvey Templeton's cars back to compitition.
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Re: history lesson

Postby ArgoTech » August 5th, 2019, 10:14 am

I know its been 10 years plus here but I have a few of Jeff Carlins cars I am restoring. one is a Beach 5c the other a 5b-which I believe is RingWraith. The thing is I have some log books and the purchase slip for the 5b but limited info on the 5c. does anyone what any info on Jeff Carlin Beach cars in the 70s he sold the 5c to a Don Soltis who sold it two years later to bob Nelson. Jeff sold the car to Don in 76... I have all the race history of it unfortunately I have been unsuccessful finding any good records of the races to get more info.
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