Help a new guy: Zink PICS added

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Help a new guy: Zink PICS added

Postby BLS » June 2nd, 2011, 4:56 pm

A short introduction: I am 58, 6ft4 and 225. I raced FV in the "good old days", 1973 - 1979. The last few years were national races mostly with a best national finish of 2nd. Runoffs in 78 finishing 22nd. Old Zink, C4 or Z4 or whatever. Started a new car after '78 and never finished it. IIRC, there were only two of us in the old style Zink in 78 runoffs, so it was dated even then. I built my own engines with help from Rollin Butler.

So, I am looking at starting again. I still have my old Zink and could rebuild for regionals or historic racing. However, I really want to compete at the national level, so a new car is required

At this point, in a desire to reduce weight where I can, I am planning to use round dom tubing with more of the strength coming from the engineering than from heavier tubing. I like the designs with square or rectangular tubing for the chassis base but I'm afraid it will be too heavy. Every 10 pounds equals a 1% accel and decel disadvantage, 50 pounds is 5%, and not likely to be competitive.

Does anyone have accurate weight for the engine, transmission (drum to drum), and front beam (drum to drum)? I have read somewhere an estimate of 200 +- 25 pounds each. That is a swing of 150 pounds possibly. I also read somewhere that a driver of 170 pounds with a 140 pound frame met the 1025 minimum. If so, I will need a considerably lighter frame and a good diet plan. If anyone has better numbers for frame weights of thier cars I would appreciate it as I need a target number to work towards. I do know there are some area's that I can cut weight like a lighter starter. If anyone has other idea's please let me know.

I originally (back in 78) had some good dimensional data. Long gone. I have measured some of my existing components but they are not as accurate as I would like. So, if anyone has accurate data for the following I would appreciate it.

Front beam torsion tube center (or from the back side) to the axle centerline with level trailing arms
Transmission split (engine/tranny flange) to the rear axle centerline
Transmission split to the rear tranny mounting face
Angle of the engine / tranny. I originally planned to have a slight tilt to lower the CG, but do not remember how much was acceptable without oiling problems. Any idea?
Ride height, what are the current cars running front and rear with level front and rear trailing arms?

Obviously, at 6'4 I need to run with the maximum 83.5" wheelbase. I will use the steering setup with the steering gearbox mounted upside down between the steering bulkhead and front beam with the tierods behind my size 13 feet.

Anyone that has suggestons , data, or idea's please leave me a comment.

I plan to run regional in 2012 and national in 2013, the fifty year anniversary. If the economy doesn't completely tank and wipe us all out. I will concentrate on the car design and tuning with a purchased engine. It will be a zero roll, leading arm design as is prevalent now. Maybe I can relearn to drive, it's been a few years. :roll:

I'm posting this at the Apex website as well.

Thanks for any help,
Barry Shelton
Last edited by BLS on July 5th, 2011, 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Barry
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby Edward Schubert » June 3rd, 2011, 7:05 am

My Citation (that I sold) bare frame didn't weight anyways near 150 pounds. I don't know what it weighed but I could stand in the middel of it , pick it up and carry it around easily. I doubt if it weighed much more than a 100 lbs. It has 1 x 3 bottom rails. It is a lot easier to work off of a rectagular base vs. round tubing...you might want to reconsider that. If weight is a big concern go with chrome molly!
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby BLS » June 3rd, 2011, 11:09 am

Hi Ed,

Your car looks pretty nice. I'm sorry you have to give it up. I have looked at CM and still considering using it. DOM gets pretty close. In both cases it's very hard to get anything but round. I found some small square CM, but nothing larger. In any event, I'm still in the design stage so everything is subject to change.

Thanks,
Barry
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby 72jeff » June 30th, 2011, 9:46 pm

use cromo if you don't mind your chassis breaking in a crash.................mild steel absorbs impacts much better
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby BLS » June 30th, 2011, 10:35 pm

Jeff, there is mountains of discussion regarding CM Vs DOM, and most of it is worthless in my opinion. I've looked at both and CM when tig welded properly looks to be better than DOM. In wall sizes of 0.120 and smaller CM is pretty simple to use but does require the correct welding techniques, but nothing fancy. Both miller and lincoln have good articles on the welding of thin wall CM. It appears to me that when properly welded, CM is better. Tensile strength is not that much different but CM has better deflection and in my opinion will handle an impact better than DOM. DOM is probably easier to weld for the DIY types. I'll have a pro weld mine whichever metal I end up using. By the way, cost is not much of a factor. Since I'm located in the heart of Nascar building, the local racing steel supplier has both in stock and the difference in a complete chassis with same wall thickness is around $100.
Barry
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby Edward Schubert » July 1st, 2011, 3:09 pm

I have raced sprint cars and midgets all made from CM. I have crashed a few very hard....high in the air, nose over tail, concrete walls and completely out of the park and have never "cracked" a frame yet. All top level sprint cars are made with CM..lighter and just as safe as DOM mild steel. If weight is a real concern go with CM...any stock car builder can get you the sizes you need.
Ed Schubert
Zink/Citation 18B
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby BLS » July 1st, 2011, 5:44 pm

Thanks Ed. I've been all throught the CM Vs DOM and I have no doubt the CM is superior. We have a stock car steel supplier located 20 minutes from me with very good pricing and everything I need in stock. I do understand the controversy. It is based on a lot of data that doesn't apply to thin wall CM or welding methods that are not the optimum.
Barry
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby racing stuff » July 1st, 2011, 6:13 pm

All the Swift DB-1's, from chassis #50 on, were CM construction, most new cars I can think of in FC are too.
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby 72jeff » July 4th, 2011, 8:56 pm

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Re: Help a new guy

Postby BLS » July 4th, 2011, 10:08 pm

Jeff, I've read that and have no problem with anything said. I also own Carroll Smith's books that are referred to. The problem with the FV is protecting the driver and keeping the design within my weight constraints.

To quote Mr. Ortiz "Therefore, there may be a case for using 4130 for the cage in the driver’s compartment of a stock car, but not for the front or rear clips."

The trick is in the welding and the potential for hardening. I have a very good friend who was a fabricator for some of the factory teams many years ago. He knows what the Nascar guys are doing as he is a supplier these days. They are using both DOM and CM and have the ability to control the welding through proper technique.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby BLS » July 4th, 2011, 10:42 pm

I will also add, I appreciate you pointing out the possible downside to CM. I admit to finding it all very confusing at first as there is a lot of info, both poitive and negative. Much of it is not really applicable to thin wall (<0.120) tubing, but the welding is critical but not difficult for an experienced CM tig welder. I've yet to decide for sure and I'm in no real hurry at this point. I'll probably purchase a car to start with and build later.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
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Re: Help a new guy

Postby BLS » July 5th, 2011, 11:38 am

The old Zink is home. A few things I noticed - the 30+ year old Goodyear "Bluestreaks" hold air pressure. Fronts are 22.5 x5 and rears are 23x5.5, larger diameter than the tires in use now, especially the fronts. Tachometer is maximum 6000rpm. Valves used to float around 5000 to 5300 as I recall. This car was a dinosaur by '78 but still managed to get to the runoffs that year. If I recall correctly it was one of only two old style Zinks in the race. Finished 22nd.

Let's try and post a pic or three: (ignore the messy driveway asi try to clean out space in the garage)

Image

Image

Image
Barry
Old Zink FV,
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Re: Help a new guy: Zink PICS added

Postby Rickydel » July 6th, 2011, 1:23 pm

Very Cool. Put a fan and generator on it. Buy some treaded tires and go vintage racing with VDCA. :P
You will have tons of fun, and their Vee fields just keep growing.

See: http://vintagedrive.com/
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Re: Help a new guy: Zink PICS added

Postby BLS » July 6th, 2011, 3:47 pm

Thanks, it's an option and I'm going to hold on to the Zink just in case I want to give that a try. I've been advised by several people that it *might* be more fun than the current national scene. Maybe I can run both....

Need more money!

PS - I sat in the car for the first time last night. What a suprise! Apparently my hip bones are wider than they were at the age of 25. I'm within 5 pounds of my weight in those days. Of course, back then there was more muscle and now more fat. It's weird, no fat on my hips and they are apparently wider, to the point I am unable to get in the seat without pain. My wife informs me that the hips do indeed widen with age. I think I heard her mumble something about being old...

As I get back into the car I noticed all the little modifications that made it possible for me to fit back then. I had moved the pedals forward past the normal Zink maximum and cut the pedals to clear the tierods when the pedals were pressed all the way down. I cut the right side of the seat down to give my arm room to use the shifter. As I recall I was actually comfortable with my knee's sticking up through the framework :shock:
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
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Re: Help a new guy: Zink PICS added

Postby BLS » November 26th, 2011, 10:00 pm

I went to my dads and picked up the remaining FV/VW parts. I brought both chassis that I started back in 1979/80 home. I can at least cut them up for some tubing to use around the garage 8)

I will finish the new 2012 model :roll:
A few pics:

The youngest son trys on the first chassis (incomplete):

Image


Headon View:

Image

Side front view:

Image


It was too small, having been altered by my friend/engineer from my original design, so we started over with this one, just the bottom:

Image


Bulkhead jigs:

Image

And one more:

Image
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
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Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm
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